People should be able to call detox get into Detox and then immediately get into a treatment program, right? Because I mean that just makes sense, right? I think anyhow You know, I mean what how does it make sense to call detox get turned away

I feel like I haven't seen you, like physically seen you in like weeks.

Why does it feel that way? Yeah, man, 

I don't know. We we've both been pretty busy and that's okay. But I'm really glad to be sitting here with you again today and looking forward to having some good conversation here 

I know we're talking about having our first guest on today but we had to Postpone that by one week, but I'm really looking forward to next Sunday because we're going to finally bring on our first of many guests, so I'm pretty pumped about that too, AZ, and yeah, it's nice to see you in person, man.

I'm 

 We have some minor tweaks to make to our studio here at Howl at the Moon. It's a mobile studio. We can, take it down, put it back up on demand. But once we get that tweak in place, yes, there will be a guest  so that's what we're waiting 

on right now.

It's exciting. I'm really looking forward to it. I know there's a bunch of people who have expressed interest in coming on our podcast and I know up until now it's just been you and I chatting back and forth, which has been super cool.  But I'm really looking forward to bringing some people on and having them share their stories and have us ask some questions and just have some great conversations.

And having said that we definitely have some people lined up who are interested in coming on the show, but if we have listeners out there who might be interested in sharing their stories, I'd encourage them to reach out to AZ or myself as well and we can look at maybe getting you on and interviewing you on the podcast here.

Absolutely. And another way to reach out is not only our website ratracepodcast. com. We have a Facebook page ratracepodcast and there's Howl at the Moon Cafe in Thunder Bay, Ontario's Facebook page as well. There's a message section there that anyone can reach out. Definitely, 

definitely. Our people can always message us personally too on our Facebook accounts.

So lots of ways to get in touch with us. And yeah, I really am an advocate of people healing out loud and sharing those stories.  It's really beneficial from my standpoint  to hear other people's journeys and stories. And I think a lot of other people are looking forward to hearing some people open up and share as well. 

Yeah, definitely. And it was interesting cause just a few days ago I was reading an article on stigma. Stigmatism and how people in society look towards someone that might have a drinking problem. And that stigma, it's a burden in society. It's looked down upon, I got interested in it and I looked up the word stigma to see if, I know my definition of stigma, but whenever I look these things up, something else pops up.

And I came across it being the ancient Greek word meaning shame or disgrace. Previously used for slaves and criminals and now used as a sign of socially undesirable like towards alcoholism. It was right there. Yeah. And the more I read this article  it was really, it put the addiction of alcohol and it categorized it to me into two categories that I never really thought of before.

One was, it's a lifestyle choice. Someone is excessively drinking.  alcohol because they choose to do and then the other one is a medical condition, something that's an actual disorder and they need it genetically. They need it to function because they have tremors or something, or, it's a medical thing.

And that medical thing is very complex that I don't, I only understand it in myself, but I can't understand, what the  medical reason for someone else drinking would be.  But when someone said that and I'm like, you know what? That is really true because I know folks that have stopped completely  without going to meetings or getting help or going to rehab  and then I thought I'm like Maybe that was a lifestyle choice.

They could just stop, And then I have others that try hard to stop but they can't do it and it's almost like it's a medical disorder and so You know, it got me thinking 

 Yeah I that's interesting conversation pieces there. I certainly have seen people who aren't able to stop and they want to stop. But literally like there are complications physically that could possibly happen if they do stop. And including all sorts of symptoms that come along with withdrawal.

Up into and including death possibly. So that's why I always encourage people who have been drinking for a long time to detox safely. That's what came to my mind as we, we were talking about that. We have a detox center here in Thunder Bay at Balmoral, but there aren't very many beds there.

And, I know that, um, people run a real risk if they try and detox on their own, sometimes, especially if they're chronic alcoholics, there could be severe complications. So I think it's really important when people come to , that decision that they want to slow down or stop, that they really look at a safe way of detoxing, whether that's going to the hospital or checking into a detox center.

The problem is here in Thunder Bay with the detox center is that there really are only a handful of beds and, I've seen over and over here, Thunder, in Thunder Bay, Z where people. And I've seen it time and time again here in Thunder Bay, Izzy, where people have called detox, they want to get in there and that's the thing, eh, like we, we really need more resources because  people, when they're ready they're ready.

And when they're told that they can't get in, it can be really frustrating. And a lot of people just say, screw it. I might as well just go back to drinking. Like I can't even get the help when I'm looking for it. And I've seen it time and time again here in Thunder Bay, Izzy, where people have called detox, you And they're told call back in three hours, call back in five hours, call back tomorrow, call back the next day.

And this goes on for days at a time sometimes, so it's really tough. And like I said, like the detoxing safely is a really important. Part of getting off the alcohol because there are like consequences that can happen like people can have seizures For example, people can actually die From acute alcohol withdrawal.

So that's really tough and we don't have the resources here in Thunder Bay And I know it's a little off topic from where we started but yeah, I thought I'd just mention that as well 

 That's important stuff because it does tie into  what we're talking about today around the whole Stigma thing as well.

I'm curious to know why people can't get a bed when they need it when they make the call. That's one of the questions that, that I have. And one thing I can think of is  I have health professionals in the field. And  there's this whole look at okay, does this person drinking because of a lifestyle choice or does this person drinking because it's a medical disorder?

And oftentimes the health professionals may not know that answer. And I'm curious to know  is why can't, when they're cowling  why aren't they getting a bed? 

I think it's just it comes down to the fact that there just aren't the beds available.

It's not that people are being turned away because detox doesn't want to detox them, but they've only got a limited amount of capacity, and we've got such a huge crisis here in Thunder Bay that that the capacity at the detox center here in the city has outgrown the demand, and this doesn't happen once in a while.

Like I've seen it over and over again where people have been calling. And they've been turned away and told to call back, to me, that says that we need more resources, we need a bigger facility. We need more beds because we have this massive problem here in Thunder Bay.

And I'm sure other cities across Canada and probably around the world are dealing with this too. And we really need to, I think, start looking at Meeting the demand and getting the resources that people need, and, but it goes much further than just detox, like it, it really goes further than that because even getting into treatment programs here in Thunder Bay, like a lot of times there's a wait list, people have to wait.

So they're ready. What do they do, between the time that they detox and they get into treatment? There's a lot of just free time there between those two dates, and a lot of times people end up just getting into that cycle of relapse. I think that we just need it.

More resources across the board because  people need like the process really should be like this, right? People should be able to call detox get into Detox and then immediately get into a treatment program, right? Because I mean that just makes sense, right? I think anyhow You know, I mean what how does it make sense to call detox get turned away, you know get told to call back Finally get into detox, get detoxed and then, apply for treatment and they tell you, yeah, like you've got a four month wait until you can get into a treatment program.

To me, that just seems what's the point, right? And then it doesn't even end with the treatment centers, right? And then like we're lacking in resources for aftercare too in, in the city and I'm sure it's not just Thunder Bay. People get out of treatment and we just we don't have the resources to, to provide the aftercare that they need in a lot of situations.

 It's really tough, and I think we're really facing some challenges here with some of the issues that we're dealing with. Yeah, I 

mean you're right. It's across the board. It's in the country. It's not just Thunder Bay and people find themselves waiting to get in.  I know friends that go in and they, they'll go in for detox, they'll get into the program, but like a few weeks in, they're already like, they're drinking, they feel they got it, they're back out, it's like a safe haven. It's a bed for them to get a meal. But when you look at their track record, they've been doing this in and out for the last 10 years, so I always wonder from like the whole, like,  from the healthcare point of view, when they're sitting there, when they're doing these assessments, they're okay, is this guy just is this is lifestyle or does this guy actually have a problem, and so that's Something that's running through my mind lately around this and I do agree with you to several points that you mentioned that. Yeah, we do need more infrastructure. We need more beds, but we also need quality staff to actually do this. There's no point bringing in more if it's just if it's just a hall full of people wanting to pass some time and get back out into the jungle.

It's another reason to do that. It's another reason to be like, okay, here's some beds. Here's some resources. Bringing them in, giving them food, shelter, and detox, and a bed to sleep on is just like one leg of a ten legged table. Definitely. You, where's the other nine legs? Yeah. Because, to me, it's all about sustainability once you're back out in the jungle on the streets.

High risk Thunder Bay, high risk Winnipeg, wherever you are in Canada or in the world. Do you have the resources and tools to move forward strong? Yeah. And that's the way I look at it too. Is that there's a lot more that still needs to be done.  Yeah, 

Totally. And I know that we started this conversation talking about stigma, and there is a lot of stigma out there in the community, I mean like  people who maybe have never struggled with an addiction or don't know people who are addicted often tend  to judge people who are struggling with those addictions, and a lot of times it seems like the city of Thunder Bay in general would just assume, brush the addiction issue under the rug, or just pretend like it doesn't exist

there's a lot of stigma and I think that's really unfortunate because these are really good people who are struggling with these addictions, and I think people lose sight of that sometimes, a lot of times they're their parents that are struggling with addictions who have kids, they're loved, and they have purpose in this life, but they're struggling.

And I think we also need to understand and remind some of our listeners, most of them probably already know, but Addictions, they stem from trauma, unresolved trauma, these are people who are broken, who are hurting and they're numbing out, they're using drugs and alcohol to numb out from trauma, right?

So I think when we look at things from that perspective and if people, more people could open their minds and understand that, our addicted loved ones are numbing out from trauma, that it looks a lot different than, this mentality and this idea of, These people choose this lifestyle.

They chose to, to use drugs. They choose to get drunk every day. There's obviously more to it than that, right? And you and I understand that. I know probably a lot of our listeners understand that too. But, oddly enough, there still are people who really think that addiction is a choice, and, I mean, It's so much bigger than that and so much deeper than that, we have to look at why people are addicted and I think that's important I often say recovery is a choice, you can choose to make that choice and commit to that journey.

But the addiction itself when people are just numbing out from unresolved trauma, the stigma really needs to disappear. 

Yeah, for sure. And, um, that ties in nicely with asking for help. I find. One of the stats I read over the weekend, it says people that don't come around to ask for help at early stages before it's too late.

It's irreversible. It's it's highly unlikely that even if you do stay sober, you're less likely to continue staying sober in the future. And that also goes with association towards liver diseases as well. So once someone has that, it's hard to reverse from that, and it was tying it in with again, with stigma and asking for help.

And when I started reading people, I grew up in a small town. Those of you that don't know my story, they can go back and listen to it. They can go back and listen to Jody's story. And I always wondered okay first of all, alcoholism is for the individual pushing the shopping cart down that back alley.

And but it's clearly not, a lot of people drink and they have problems, but instead of passing out on the street, they're passing out in their backyard, they might have a fancier roof to go home to, with that's heated, and running water. But it was always like, okay, what if there's a problem with whether it's alcoholism or financial issues or driving home a beater vehicle versus a newer vehicle, what are the people going to think?

It was that it was that stigma and especially when it came to like addiction or drug use, like no one looks at the, like the pharmaceutical side of things like that, if someone's addicted to a pill with a prescription versus alcohol, and I know in my town, it was a big deal if someone had a drinking problem,  and it was always looked at them like, because I wasn't educated that it can potentially be a medical disorder or it is a medical disorder, but I always like 99  percent of the time looked at this individual and been like, Yeah, he's older and yeah, that's his lifestyle choice.

That's his choice, but not thinking that it could be intergenerational trauma Like you mentioned something 

that happened to someone's past and more often than not that isn't the case, you know trauma is definitely the root of most addictions if not almost all addictions, It's just, it's unresolved pain and people are just numbing out.

And we see that all the time here in Thunder Bay. And we've even talked about it here because the drugs are getting even worse here. The supply and so on is getting really dangerous for us. Like, and an example of like trauma and addiction would be this, right? Like we've got people here in Thunder Bay who are using hard drugs.

Fentanyl is a huge problem here in Thunder Bay for people, right? People know and understand the risks with these drugs, like they know that they may overdose, they know that they might not wake up, right? But they continue to use them anyhow. And to me, that just speaks volumes to the amount of trauma that some of our friends are carrying, because honestly, I know people who would probably prefer not to wake up, that's how much pain they're in, and that's the bigger problem, and that's where I think we need to really look for solutions there and try and,  Build these people back up and give them hope and reconnect them with some things that are feeding their purpose, their passions, feeding them as people and that's where we need to lose the stigma too, because I think a lot of times people get caught up in that cycle, like this, they know the stigma exists, right?

Like they look around, they know people are judging them and the city would just assume they didn't exist and wants to brush them under the rug. Yeah. It just, it's another hit to their self esteem too. And it almost spiral some even deeper into that addiction, so stigma is really a dangerous thing.

And I think we need to stop looking at addiction that way through that lens, and really just start to. Have some compassion for people and really try and understand why they're in that cycle of addiction and look for real solutions, and try and help people get out because people can heal.

We've seen it easy. Like we've seen people who've committed to their healing journeys, and gotten out of some really dark places like really dark places. It can be done, but. They need love. They need encouragement. They need resources. They need all those things to do it. They can't do it on their own, and I think dropping the stigma and coming at it from a compassionate viewpoint is a really good step in the right direction to helping people make that first step into recovery.

Definitely. And 100 

percent Jody.  I have an extended family member in the country that's going through something similar. And same thing it's that whole okay, not worrying about what other people are going to think. 

I used to think that way. I used to think that, okay what if everyone in my family finds out  this guy has a drinking problem.  And truth be told, me being a strong drinker is the best thing that's ever happened to me. Because I was able to like, see clearly, stop drinking, figure out what works for my brain.

Surround myself with the right community and just strive and try everything I want to do. And if it's not for me, I go on to the next. And that's my story. That's my story in like a nutshell. But I think by recognizing that when people around us are aware, it can actually lead towards infinite number of resources coming our way to get us help.

Because now people around us are aware that we want the help, and  we're not being feel like we're targeted.  Because now I want it, and so what that led when I went through that is, okay, I got off that drug I was doing or that alcohol I was doing, okay, and that was the number one thing is you got to get off, you got to either have the right meds on you for a clear mind, or you have to get off of the stuff that you're doing to mood alter once that's out of the way.

And that might look like detox, for example,  but once that's out of the way, then it's like forming that connection, that community. Who do I have in my circle? Okay. Rehab, my home, wherever I am in the world that I can figure out a way to, to integrate myself into society. And I know a friend in the country that the stigma around alcohol use and drinking and driving, for example.

He did not want anyone to know that his neighbors, his family, his friends, that he had a drinking and driving charge . That's gonna not allow him to drive for the next three years.  And the job involved driving on the highway,

but, life doesn't wait for those problems.  The reality is that the guy might have two more years left to go, and he'll be back on the road. But life doesn't wait for that. We're too caught in the past, we're too caught in the future, and we're worried about what everyone is thinking around us.

That whole stigma piece, rather than focusing on ourself. The big part, if you look at history and you look at evolution, is adaptation of the human being. We gotta learn to adapt and ride with that wave, otherwise we're gonna be mentally checked out and lost. And to me, when I look at my good friend in the country, call it an extended family member, It's essentially saying, is like, all bullshit aside, the reality is that job's not in the picture right now for the next two more years.

Find something to fill your time in the interim. You'll be back at it. This is a time to step back and not even step back. Put some resources around you. Try a hundred things and three might stick, okay? And surround yourself with people  your family, your community, your people that you trust.

And if that's not it, there's tons of focus groups and just groups with similar like disorders or whatever is going on mentally that you can access virtually or in person because  you live in Toronto. Do you know what I mean? You have resources up the ying yang and there's no excuse

and then once that's in place,  You're living the present and more importantly that whatever stigma that you have can be the biggest Opportunity in disguise because you'll have  people wanting to help you and get you through it That's what I learned over the 

years. Makes good sense.

Yeah. Yeah, 



 Again, like just going back to how much pain and trauma some people are, like I had a really Interesting perspective when I used to work downtown Fort William, a bird's eye view of of some really dark places and some really dark activities happening, and, sometimes at work when I was still working downtown Fort William there, like I'd see, I unfortunately I had to see some people overdose and Sometimes I'd see people overdose two, three times inside of a two or three week period, and like you'd think that would be enough to really make somebody change their mind about their addiction.

But I think it's just proof positive again about how much pain and trauma some of these people are carrying. Some of our loved ones, right? Because, how do you overdose three times in three weeks and still continue with your addiction. Obviously that's not a lifestyle. That's trauma.

That's trauma because, you're using to, to numb out and you don't care what the consequences are. As a matter of fact, like I said, like some people that are using would just as soon not wake up, and that'd probably be a better outcome for them. And that to me is just tragic and heartbreaking because it just  Again, it's proof positive and shows how much pain and trauma some of our loved ones are carrying around.

I just, it breaks my heart. I because these are great people. These are people with with purpose. These are people with families.  There are people who love these people and and they're just hurting so badly  that  they're willing to play the Russian roulette with their lives, to just to get a bit of a break from that pain and trauma by numbing out, that's hard. 

 And to 

me,  I don't think that's a lifestyle choice it looks like a disorder like because they haven't  dealt with certain things in their life, but then  it's not just maybe they don't have the processing ability at this point in their life to deal with it. 

And so with that, they do need resources around them, but in order for them to do that, they need to withdraw somehow from that drug that they're doing or. Or whatever it is, right? Because you need that clear mind first, which is step one. 

Of course. There has to be a realization for anybody who is using, there has to be a realization that, I want to stop.

And from that point you have to do some things. Get the ball rolling. Probably, I think a lot of times that decision comes while you're still using. Maybe you're just, you're fed up. You've just had enough. You you're ready to maybe try and work through some of the trauma that you're dealing with.

You're ready to maybe try and  heal from your addiction. And I think for a lot of our friends  that realization comes while they're still using. But there comes a point where you need some clarity so you can put together a plan, and you can start to.

To look for what resources are out there and really put together an action plan to heal from your addiction But that's what I was talking about earlier on in this recording was that okay So somebody has that realization. They're like, you know what? I don't want to do this anymore.

I'm done getting high. I'm done getting drunk I realize that I've got some trauma that I need to resolve and work through. I'm ready to maybe work on myself and get myself healthy, and then they call detox and they're turned away, and I think that can be even more disheartening because they're like, you know what?

Fuck it. What, you know what was saving thing? I'd forget about it, man. I'm just going to go back to using might as well because the resources aren't there anyhow, and the same can be true. Like even if they make it past step one, like maybe eventually they do get into that detox center.

Okay. So detox is come on down. We've got a bed for you. Okay, great. And they sober up. safely. They're in that detox center for six or seven days, but when there's no resources immediately at the end of that that sober up period, what do you expect is going to happen?

Of course they're going to relapse, if they don't have support at that point in time, they're going to relapse, and that's where I think there's just gaping holes in the resources here in Thunder Bay. It's crazy. There's gotta be a way. And I don't really know what the solution is.

Like maybe some of these pharmaceutical companies need to step up and start coughing up some cash for treatment and for for healing centers and recovery centers and so on. But like it really should be as simple as, I'm addicted. I decide that I want to get clean.

I call detox. I'm instantly offered a bed. They say, come on right over. We'll hook you up. You get in there, and during those six and seven days, I've got counselors coming up to me, workers coming up to me and offering me resources and saying, look, like we're going to, we can send you here.

We can send you here. These are the things, these are your options, right? And it should be a smooth transition from that detox center right Immediately after detoxing into a treatment center where there are workers and resources that can help you on that next step, and then when that ends, it should be a smooth, easy transition right into an aftercare program or halfway.

There can't be gaps. There can't be gaping gaps between these steps because when we've got these gaping gaps, people fall through, they fall through those gaps and we end up having those cycles of relapses and people end up back right where they started.  Yeah, I know. 

Very interesting stuff that you just mentioned.

I've I've worked in parts of the country where there's infinite resources for communities to go to any rehab program  in the country. And they'll pay 30 grand for, per person to go to a high end treatment facility. That's if they want it. All they got to do is sign their name on the dotted line.

And it doesn't get used as frequently as you would think. And it's not in their hometown, of course, it's, these communities are in geographically isolated places in the country. Even sometimes I've seen it when  the funding is there,  everything's even in favor of an individual going in, going into detox, getting a bed, going into a high end treatment facility,  and there's aftercare and then you're set to go.

I've seen relapses happen to even on that end. Oh, of 

course. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I do. And yeah, I think that's where it hinges on the person's real want and desire to heal from their addiction. A hundred percent. Before anything, first and foremost, that has to be there, if you're not serious about your recovery, it doesn't matter how many resources are lined up there.

If you're not serious about taking advantage of those resources, doing the work, you're going to relapse, so no, I think that's paramount what you just said there. Like it doesn't matter. What's lined up because even in situations where, the best resources in the world are lined up, if someone in addiction isn't really ready to make those steps and make those positive changes and work on themselves and try and heal themselves from the addiction, they're not going to do it.

We've talked about that in previous episodes too.  And that's true. You can't you can't. Court order recovery. You can't force one of your loved ones into recovery, as much as we'd love to save people we care about from their addictions. If someone who's addicted isn't ready, it ain't going to work.

It ain't going to work. You can literally pick them up and carry them to the recovery center, but if they're not ready, it ain't going to work. They're going to relapse. That's just how it's going to go. So we've seen that time and time again, the opposite is also true AZ. Like we've seen it too, where yeah.

People show up here at Health Moon for some of our programming and so on, and I see people who have they're committed, like they are committed to their healing journeys. You can tell they are like they're hustling hard. They're doing the work, they're going to meetings or using those resources that are available. 

Sometimes here in Thunder Bay, they really have to struggle to get access to those resources. And I see these guys really hustling, to make sure that that they're being proactive in their recoveries. And that's the good news is that. When people are proactive in their recoveries from their addictions,  the success rate is in my opinion, actually pretty high, but it's, that's the threshold what we were just talking about a few minutes ago.

Like you have to get over that hurdle. Like you have to be ready. You have to want it, when you do, it, it can be done, but if you're just half assing it or someone's trying to force you in or judges me, can you go do it? It's, it doesn't work like that. That's not how healing works.

That's not how recovery works. Definitely, Jody. And 

I appreciate having this discussion with you today. Is there anything else you wanted to add

 No, I think we had a great discussion there and I appreciate your time today, Izzy. Sounds good. A lot to think about.

And 

thanks again, 

Jody. Thanks.