Like alcohol is in your face everywhere you go. And people are almost encouraged and groomed into thinking that it's normal  to need alcohol, to be social and to be a part of something, but it's not.

You're listening to rat race stories of addiction and recovery. With your host, Jody and a Z.  

 It's one of the things I've learned now that I'm sober almost nine years is just life doesn't wait for anything. Exactly. We either stay behind  and when we stay behind, we forget to. Live the day and live the emotions and handle the emotions of today. Totally, man. We're lost too far in advance, or we're thinking too far in advance, futurizing, or we're lost with an event that just 

happened.

Agreed, agreed. And there are things that are out of our control and it's out of my control. I can't do anything to change it. So we need to carry on in a good way and find solutions. And that's what we're going to do. And that's why I'm focus on the good stuff that is happening.

Cause this podcast is a really good thing and we need it to be good and we need it to be top notch and I want to be here and I want to be present for it 



And we just, You haven't even been open a year yet. Exactly. So you got to keep celebrating those successes. That's right. There's been a lot of strong 

successes. There have been, man. And I need to remind myself of that sometimes, like we've done a lot in the nine months that we've been open and we really have had some incredible milestones, sure there've been some setbacks, we really have accomplished some amazing things.

And this podcast is one of those things, and I'm really grateful for that and I'm grateful for you and what we're doing here. And your commitment to me and this place overall, like it's awesome. Cause I know you want this place to, to thrive because you understand how important this is, and I appreciate that, like you are a real supporter we're doing here and I'm so glad to have you on board, man.



It's good to be on board. I don't know anyone that starts a healing journey. And, day one, they're opening up a safe, sober space. It comes with time. Sure, it does. It comes with time and it comes with self realization, working on their own journey and their own healing before that saying of helping yourself before we can help others is very 

important.

It is. We need to get on firm footing first, right?  Having said that a lot of times, people who have got that lived experience in I have a lot of experience with addiction and I've experienced some of the things that happen along with addiction, including loss and pain and trauma. We ended up going on to be some of the best workers and helpers in this field, right?

Because we have that lived experience, which is really important and it's it radiates because you can't learn this stuff out of a textbook. Yeah. You can go to school and take a course on addiction and on recovery and on helping people and, you can try and learn that way.

But the lived experience is what's really important. And that's why I find that so many people who are really effective in this healing community are recovered addicts and recovered users, because they get it. And they're able to, now that they're on their own firm footing and They're far enough along on their healing journeys, they're able to give back and help others.

And there's just real purpose in that. And the way it makes me feel and the way it makes others feel, I know there's others who would agree with me. It just, it's an amazing feeling when you can get back, like what else would I do? There's nothing else I could be doing in my life right now that would make me feel the way that the health moon project and working with the people makes me feel it's amazing, and you can't put a dollar amount on that either.

Izzy, there's tons of things I could be doing right now  But I wouldn't get the same satisfaction, this project feeds my spirit.

It feeds my soul. It's exactly what I want to be doing, and that's way more important to me than dollars. Yeah.

You made me think of something right now and it's. It's that whole like

achievement,  what we've achieved,  versus what 

fulfills us.  

And achievement might  pay more.  Okay, what next? Oh, let's go on to the bigger and better thing. 

You got to wonder someone with millions and billions of dollars commit suicide,  but they've achieved a lot. Were they fulfilled? And I think when we ask the question of, are we fulfilled? At this point in my life, fulfillment overrides achievement. A hundred percent, man. And I look at you with this project here,.

It brings you fulfillment. 

You're talking about purpose, Az, and I think that, that purpose is so important in our lives because it gives us a sense of accomplishment unlike anything else, and I think too often in society these days, people try and measure success in dollars. That's wrong.

It's not the right way to measure success. Money isn't a good measure of success.  What we're talking about here is real purpose, it's things  that feed our spirit. They make us feel good, and we feel like we're doing something productive and positive and we're given back and money isn't a substitute for that.

And like I said, I'm really grateful for this opportunity and I'm so grateful to be able to do this and I'm glad to have you on board and there's others too that have just committed so much time and effort to helping. The community here and God knows we need all the help we can get here in Thunder Bay because we are in the midst of a drug and alcohol crisis, and the more people that step up and work together, the better chance we have of helping  to save a few more people, cause we're losing people in this community every single day to overdoses, to their bodies failing, to gang violence.

It's happening every single day. Young people to, there were just a whole bunch  of major losses regarding young people before Christmas there a lot of them related to drugs and alcohol. It's  important work that we're doing and yeah, it's an honor to be able to do it, and I'm really grateful for all the people in this city who have stepped up

and you really have to have a real  love for people and want to see people thrive and succeed. And I think I've just seen so many people struggle and suffer. I don't want to see that anymore, I just, I really want people to get healthy. That's legitimate and true.

And I know you're the same way and I think that's why we were effective in the work that we're doing. Yeah. 

I'm  with what you just said and there's how many times over the last like couple of months I've been driving from point A to B in the evening or at night and I see a street blocked off with police vehicles.

And then you see maybe a stretcher or a paramedic vehicle in the background. You just wonder what's going on, it could be anything really, right? And it's there, it's just, we don't talk about it enough. It makes me think with my I'm Punjabi Indian ethnicity.

My mom and dad are from India and and I was born in Canada, in British Columbia. And there's a good percentage of Punjabi speaking Canadians in the country. Without the exact stat, but we might be as close to 1 percent of the population. 1 percent of just under 40 million, that's quite a bit of people.

We might even be closer to 2%.  And we're mainly in Ontario, the Toronto area and Vancouver, the surrounding area in Vancouver. And there's other, every major city has our presence. Something I've been thinking about a lot lately is Support for different ethnic groups, including my own. 

And when I look at where my population is situated, let's say just outside of Vancouver, an area called Delta, Surrey, British Columbia, if I look at all the meetings in that space,  there's meetings every hour, every day, pretty much,  minus the midnight hours where you're supposed to be sleeping and stuff, but meetings are accessible online on zoom,  wherever you are in the world. 

But I look at. Punjabi speaking meetings tailored towards my ethnic group, there's one meeting, I think on a Wednesday  for one hour for a population that's loves to drink, loves their hard liquors like their whiskeys and their crowns and their Bacardi's and vodkas and, beers there as well, but it's that hard stuff, and  I was wondering Like, why can't my people stop? 

And I don't know that answer.  I go into a liquor store and I see a bottle of crown with Punjabi writing on it, you'll have that in wherever there's a stronger ethnic group, you can have creative marketing like that and it's written in Punjabi letters words   I want to talk about why is it so hard for ethnic groups or just people in general to stop drinking? 

And  I don't have the answer to that. For me is when I started drinking,  I was able to become more social and I wanted to stay social because I wanted to seek things from people, places and things and be part of those social circles.  And when I stopped drinking, I didn't know how to do it. 

So it was hard for me to stop until  I went to rehab and I realized, Hey, I don't need, I shouldn't be focused on that stuff. I should just focus on loving myself. And it took me a long time to realize that. But the majority of us out there. We can't just do that. It takes time and it takes work.  And  I want to know what your experience is on either with yourself or the people around you.

And their journey is on stopping to drink. Why is it so hard for us to stop?  

I think part of the reason that it's so hard to stop, and we alluded to this in another episode, is that it's so socially acceptable to drink alcohol. It's everywhere you look it's on social media, it's in the grocery stores, it's soon to be in the convenience stores, you take a walk down the street, you're not going to go 10 feet without seeing an empty beer can or an empty Mickey sitting on the ground. Like alcohol is in your face everywhere you go. And people are almost encouraged and groomed into thinking that it's normal  to need alcohol, to be social and to be a part of something, but it's not.

And  I'm really glad to see that there's more social sober settings opening up because I think that people who don't drink  need places to go to, to be social and enjoy doing social things as well because people are social, we like to be around other people. We like to do fun things and so on.

And I think that the onus needs to be on, and I think it's important for us as recovered alcoholics and also people maybe who just never drank to, to really make those spaces available and have them out there so that there are alternatives for people, because if being social, if the only way to be social is to go to a bar, that's the only option then, people are going to go to the bar to be social, but if we have sober spaces where they can get, A similar experience and they can connect with other people and have great times and great conversations and connections and do fun things.

Then people have that option, and I think for the longest time there just weren't really those options like, you got a coffee shop, sure. But like people are craving more than that.  They want to get together and watch a hockey game or they want to maybe go out and watch a band or watch a sporting event or do something social, play games. 

To do those things, generally speaking, you got to go somewhere where there's going to be alcohol and booze and alcohol and booze is tied into all those things. It's almost if you're doing those things that you just, you have to have a drink or that's how society thinks, so I think like the onus is really on us to just show people that. You know what? Like  you can live a really awesome life and be social and have a lot of fun. I think that's part of it because I think people are literally like brainwashed from a really young age thinking that you need booze to do anything.

You go to a football game, you need to have a beer in your hand. You go to a hockey game, you need to have a beer in your hand. You go to a movie, you need to have a beer in your hand. It's everywhere. You know what I mean? It's just, and I think that it's been ingrained in people's minds that we need that.

And that's probably done by design. I'm sure there's huge lobby groups behind these beer and liquor companies pushing that agenda,  to brainwash people, especially young people into believing that, but it's simply not true. And I think that's why people have a hard time quitting or even considering that they can have a good time without it because , it's so socially acceptable.

It's become the norm that you needed as part of your life. Yeah, Jodi, 

When I project what you said  on what Punjabis go through, whether they're going through a downtime, they may drink. A lot of them I know are extremely successful. They're very collective groups and they work together to expand.

And it comes with success. Oh, we're going to drink every weekend or every, have a few drinks every night because there's a lot of good things happening, so both ways, whichever way you look at it, down times or good times, there's 

booze associated with that. That's right. You just nailed it.

If, yeah, if we're having a hard time, you know what? I'm going to have a drink to take the edge off. Oh, you know what? We just accomplished something. I'm going to celebrate it with a drink. Why does it have to be like that? It, it doesn't but it is, and those are some of the hurdles and obstacles  that as a society we were dealing with. 

Yeah. Like why, for example you accomplish something or you hit a milestone  or it's a celebration, it's a birthday, an anniversary, like, why do you have to get hammered? Why? Like, why is that the only way to do that?

It's not, right?  For so many people, that's just like the knee jerk reaction, right? Oh, it's my birthday in a week. What am I going to do? I'm going to go out and get pissed. That, that was me too for decades, right? Oh, it's New Year's Eve. What am I going to do?

I'm going to go out and get hammered, oh, it's Christmas. I'm going to have some rum and eggnogs, oh, it's it's the July 4th long weekend and I'm gonna go get a case of beer, like, why does it have to be like that? It doesn't but that's just like we're literally taught that from a very young age and it's all over media.

It's all over social media. It's in movies. It's on television shows like it's so in your face, right? I think that it's just become so normalized and it's so not normal AZ. It's so not normal.  Yeah, it's an agenda.  No, 100%. 

It's like what you said about that brainwashing. I saw that in high school It's what people did Friday rolls around you're gonna go drink and 

I remember watching in Northern BC, we would turn on the TV for New Year's with my family and people are huddled around the Space Needle in Seattle because they're in the same time zone as us and they're ringing in the New Year and we're watching and everyone's drinking and hammered. So it's just something that we didn't drink in the household.

My parents don't drink,  but that's what media fed us every time. What you're 

saying. All the time. 

Yeah. Yeah. 

I have a good friend of mine, Punjabi, Indo Canadian,  and he wanted to stop. He wanted to so bad. So he's okay, let's go to a psychiatrist. Let's go to a one on one counseling. Bad experience. Bad experience. Okay, I'm not going to try that again. And he goes to a group setting, if I recall correctly, maybe he even went to  the Punjabi speaking meeting in Surrey Delta, British Columbia. 

But he had a bad experience. It was getting there was like more like half the battle, one hour on a Wednesday for him to meet, in the evening  it didn't line up. He wasn't getting what he needed.  And where that  led him was he didn't make it like he didn't, he's not alive today. 

So  I find when we even as a society, regardless of ethnic background, we try to stop.  It can just be difficult getting there, or willing to trying it. And I remember as an alcoholic at one point in my life, Drinking excessively. If I had a bad experience I'm not going back to that. , how am I going to cope with it?

I'm going to continue to drink. And  so that's what I'm getting at is that it can be so hard to stop when  the right options aren't available to us to in society. 

Of course, it makes it more difficult, and then of course there's also that stigma involved with admitting that maybe you're an alcoholic, and so people are maybe reluctant  to even  that realization or that's to themselves, and then if they do, yeah, there's, the resources are limited the meetings are short and, we've talked about that in other episodes too, that, outside of the meeting, you're great when you go to a meeting or you're great if you go to a  treatment program for a couple of weeks.

What is there outside of these resources, that the resources are limited enough to begin with. And then when you leave those resources, you're right back in this this world of alcohol being glamorized and so in your face again, right? So I think that's another reason that people struggle.

I think too, sometimes it can be really intimidating to go to to meetings or resources sometimes too.  Sometimes they're not the most welcoming settings, and that can be intimidating. Sometimes it even gets cliquey a little bit inside of these settings, and that can be a really Yeah.

And that's why like here again, and I'm not trying to,  talk my own book here but I really try and make how the moon like a really comfortable space for people, where they feel comfortable. Yeah. Where they're not being judged, where they can open up, and  I know that we've seen it at some of the programming that we've offered here and I've even seen some of the leaders who come in and run these programs here say wow, like people really open up in this space.

And I think that's because  of what we've put together here. Like I, I really try to make this place like very comfortable people, like no judgment. Really encouraging friendly just like a really positive experience because like you said, if you go out and  you try and get control of your life back and you're trying. Maybe do some work on yourself and beat your addiction and you go somewhere and it's, it puts a bad taste in your mouth, like you're not going back. Yeah. And so I, I think that maybe we need to really focus on making comfortable, safe spaces  where people can come in and there's, they're just welcome with open arms, like where everybody just wants the same thing for each other.

We want to encourage each other in our recoveries. We wanna push sobriety, that healthy lifestyle, that healthy living, and we just want, we want others to succeed.  Yeah, I like what 

you said and it made me think of something else that oftentimes when I was going through my excessive drinking, I thought it was more so just I was drinking to, to maybe be social or just to deal with my own thoughts.

But we drink for other reasons too, and being aware of that. , yeah, we'll drink to be social, but it's also like drinking to conform drinking for enhancement and then drinking to cope. So I can  break it down into four different categories. And so it's social conform enhancement.

And to cope,  and I remember reading a research article as well that talked about these four categories and  I think recognizing what stage one person is at.  And I wish my people can just, even if they're going to take anything away from this discussion is just be aware of those four categories because at one point in my life, I can say I was all four and there's certain parts of the year  of my time  drinking, I was maybe more so focused on one or two, being aware of all four  can be steps towards being like, okay it's a bit excessive  and this needs to stop because it's not just social anymore. It's 

all four of these. That's right.  Yeah. What you said made a lot of sense. And I understand where you're going with that. And I agree with you  being aware of why we drink and the reasons that we're drinking can definitely help us to maybe. 

Get some new perspective on the whole situation and maybe lead us to a point where we're not needing or relying on that alcohol anymore. Yeah. 

And say spaces like how let the moon cafe in Thunder Bay, Ontario,  these are spaces where it's not just about being social and not drinking.

It's about all four of those categories, whether someone's out there coping with life. By drinking or  they need it to enhance themselves to be social, and  being aware that safe spaces are so much broader than just  the social aspect of drinking. And that's the way I look at it.

Jody, is there anything else you want to add to when someone out there is trying to stop or if you have a message out there that someone is in the process of stopping to drink



I think just understanding and recognizing  that we've been programmed to, to think that, that alcohol is normal and that we need it is maybe we need to reconsider that whole viewpoint, that whole way of thinking about things. Because  I think that really when we're using alcohol and drugs too,  we're really holding ourselves back, we're not able to live up to our fullest potential in so many ways, as like parents, as community leaders, as  friends, it holds us back. I I've been reading a little bit about some celebrities too who struggled with their addictions  and some of their stories.

I find that quite interesting. And a lot of them alluded to what I just said there, that they really wanted to excel in their own craft and in their own lives and that they eventually came to that understanding and that recognition that the needing drugs and alcohol in your life was an illusion and that it truly was holding them back from their truest and fullest potential, and when you have that  understanding that awakening, like maybe you decide that, you know what I don't need this.

I don't want this. And I think that my life would be a whole lot better off without this, and that's the truth. , it is better off. I can see from personal experience that my life is a million times better without drugs and alcohol, even though in the moment I thought that I was living the dream and the life, before I maybe came to that realization that it had become a problem, I thought, wow, isn't this fun?

Isn't this awesome? It's just incredible. But with the benefit of hindsight and the benefit of clarity, like it held me back so much. And now in my sobriety, like I have zero interest in going back to living that way because it wasn't fulfilling me and it was holding me back, and here we are now.

And  I'm just so grateful for my sobriety every single day and the clarity that comes along with it and the purpose and all that stuff. Amazing. 

Jody thanks for sitting down to chat with me today. Thank you, AC. You're welcome. And I'll see you next week. You bet. 

As a reminder episodes are released every Thursday on Spotify, apple. Or visit us@ratracepodcast.com. Please feel free to leave us a review. Or follow subscribe to continue joining us on our journey. Thank you so much for listening.

And bye for now.